UPDATE: East Asians and Testosterone II
Hays (2011) states:
North Asians have lower levels of muscle-building testosterone than Europeans. Some Asian athletes have taken testosterone-like steroids as “a way of leveling the playing field.”
He provides no source for either claim. Mail sent to Mr. Hays on March 15, 2013 remain unanswered. Not to be outdone, Kelsey (2008) further states:
The reason basically for Asian men being more feminine in physical appearance is because of they produce more estrogen than men of other racial groups. Asian women are more feminine in appearance because they produce more estrogen than other women. This estrogen also influences personality and emotions this makes Asian men display characteristics that often are associated with women.
Some of the characteristics are they keep emotions hidden well meaning it can be difficult to tell when an Asian man is angry. The more testosterone a man produce the more he will show his emotions of anger, joy, sadness, happiness, etc. The less testosterone a man produces the more he is able to keep his emotions hidden.
But when he has kept these emotions hidden for a long time and bottled up whether these emotions are positive or negative when they come out they will manifest very strongly. The estrogen allows Asian men and women to look younger for many years example a 40 year old Asian man who looks 27 years old.
The claim of lower East Asian testosterone (T) levels is now a race realist marker of “race” or race difference. The European race realist asserts three main ethnic androgen hypotheses with some corollary hypotheses.
- African males have the highest testosterone level
- European males have an intermediate testosterone level
- East Asian males have the lowest testosterone level
- Indo-Aryan or South Asian males have low testosterone levels but higher than East Asians [despite not following from the main hypotheses]
- Middle Eastern males have high testosterone levels but not as high as Africans
- Indigenous American males have lower testosterone levels but higher than Indo-Aryans
- Latin American males have levels commensurate with their respective Asiatic-American and African admixture (for most instances, higher than Americans)
Data is available for each of these groups though lacking for Americans, Indo-Aryans and Latin Americans. The (general) race realist T-ranking from highest to lowest:
- Middle Easterner
- Native American
- East Asian
To race realists, when East Asian males are passive, it is because they have the lowest testosterone levels which cause their genitals to be deformed such that they have the smallest lengths, girths, testicular weight and sperm production. When East Asian males are aggressive, it is because they are annoyed that they have low testosterone which causes their genitals to be deformed such that they have the smallest lengths, girths, testicular weight and sperm production. It is a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ stereotype.
Trying to hide this behind a scientific veneer, Jean Philippe Rushton uses the incidence of prostate cancer to assert that since it is high in Americans of African descent, lower in Americans of European descent and lowest in East Asians, it is mainly due to testosterone differences. The problem is that he conveniently focuses on only three groups which he also conveniently defines. His “Caucasoid” grouping does not include Semites and Aryans. His “Mongoloid” group does not include Euro-Americans (Latinos) and indigenous Americans. His “Negroid” group includes US Afropeans but not Dravidians (South Asians) and those with Negrito ancestry such as Malays, which he includes in his “Mongoloid” group.
If he were to have found a race realist revolutionary update to Darwinian evolution as he asserts, then he would have found that Arabs (Saudis, Omanis and Kuwaitis) also have very low prostate cancer rates and that Afro-Zimbabweans have lower levels of prostate cancer than Euro-Zimbabweans, Germans, Australians and US Europeans and a bit lower rate than the Welsh (Kehinde et al. 2005). Contra Eurocentric race realism, Strahm et al. (2009) states in referring to Satner et al. (1998) that:
Comparative studies of Caucasian and Chinese subjects living either in the USA or in China provided strong evidence that environmental/dietary, but not genetic, factors influence androgen production.
Miller et al. (1985) found that “[t]estosterone did not differ with ethnic group” when studying Trinidadian men of African and Indo-Aryan descent. Even among rapists and child molesters, most had normal T levels except for those who were the most violent. Rada, Laws and Kellner (1976) further states that:
There was no correlation between age, race, or length of incarceration and plasma testosterone level.
Rushton had previously proposed the ‘principle of aggregation’ where he would aggregate data to minimize bias. He is correct that data aggregation can minimize bias. He is incorrect in his poor choice of data in the first place (but I digress). Applying his own principle of aggregation, what follow is a meta-analysis of over 150 peer-reviewed articles on hormone levels in different ethnic groups to see if his hypothesis is correct (at least according to the available data).
So ladies, if you want a high T male, go to the Philippines (8100 ρg/mL) and find yourself a malnourished, sexually active, 22 year old Filipino; 5 feet 4 inches, 123 lbs, poorly educated and making slightly less than $9 US monthly [Gettler, McDade & Kuzawa (2011)]. Even better, find an Egyptian.
[N.B. Values are liable to be updated if errors detected, self-analysis of data highly recommended before using this hypothesis]
Gettler, L., McDade, T., and C. Kuzawa. 2011. Cortisol and testosterone in Filipino young adult men: evidence for co-regulation of both hormones by fatherhood and relationship status. American Journal of Human Biology 23(5): 609-620.
Hays, Jeffreys. 2011. Chinese People, Asian Physical Characteristics, Genetics and DNA. http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=118&catid=4&subcatid=18 [accessed: 2013-04-06]. | New link : http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat4/sub18/item118.html as of 2016-10-19.
Kehinde, E., Akanji, A., Mojiminiyi, O., et al. 2005. Putative role of serum insulin-like growth factor–1 (IGF-1) and IGF binding protein-3 (IGFBP-3) levels in the development of prostate cancer in Arab men. Prostate Cancer and Prostatic Diseases 8: 84–90.
Kelsey, Chance. 2008. Why Do Many White Women Not Date Asian Men? Chancellorfiles blog. http://chancellorfiles.wordpress.com/2008/02/24/why-do-many-white-women-not-date-asian-men [accessed: 2013-04-15].
Miller, G., Wheeler, M., Price, S., et al. 1985. Serum high density lipoprotein subclasses, testosterone and sex-hormone-binding globulin in Trinidadian men of African and Indian descent. Atherosclerosis 55(3): 251-258.
Rada, R., Laws, D., and R. Kellner. 1976. Plasma testosterone levels in the rapist. Psychosomatic Medicine 38(4): 257-268.
Santner, S., Albertson, B., Zhang, G-Y., et al. 1998. Comparative rates of androgen production and metabolism in Caucasian and Chinese subjects. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 83: 2104–2109.
Strahm, E., Sottas, P-E., Schweizer, C., et al. 2009. Steroid profiles of professional soccer players: an international comparative study. British Journal of Sports Medicine 43: 1126-1130.
UPDATE 2013-05-08: A blogger on the race realist AnthroScape blog states:
This PDF file is not to be taken 100% seriously. It obviously lacks measurements of free testosterone, which is arguably more important than total testosterone. Furthermore, extrapolating a table ranking ethnic groups based on testosterone levels is not the best idea, especially when there are different age brackets and methodologies of each of the studies to consider.
- There is no way of accurately determining free testosterone. Even if there was, this would also be irrelevant since bio-availability is prime. Since race realists use total serum testosterone, why is this an issue?
- One cannot and should not compare different testosterone studies with different measurement methods. However, for the race-realist purpose of aggregating data, there is nothing inherently wrong with what the PDF file lists. If JP Rushton can use a few studies and make wild claims which are then used by the Internet-o-sphere, using 150 independent peer-reviewed sources with large samples is much more scientific than anything similar from the race realist community.
- The PDF contains all of the above and has a long list of why testosterone measurements can be fickle.
- Age differences will affect the results but healthy males should have negligible decreases. Assuming a 0.4% annual decline from 5000 pg/ml after age 40, a man at 80 should have 4275 pg/mL, less than a 15% difference if my spreadsheet math is correct. It would have been better to normalize for age. So while the tabled rankings is flawed, the point is that the entire issue is flawed as there is no standard measuring method in the first place. That race realists routinely use flawed data should be the issue but …
- Do feel free to wade through the tables and references and normalize the data for methodology and age. Good luck on that though.
He further states:
I find it slightly odd that Indians have the highest testosterone levels, although it’s understandable because of the conditions they are living in. …… Social aggression, dominance and high cognition among men, especially visuo-spatial cognition, is correlated with moderate to high testosterone levels. Stress and depression are correlated with lower testosterone levels, as are personality traits such as submission and less aggression.
- What conditions are Indians living in that make for higher T?
- Western defined and rated social aggression and dominance will obviously down relegate Easterners. That is simple bias: stacking the definitional deck and insisting that everyone play by said deck.
- What level of correlation is there? There will always be correlations but only if it is significant can such data be used.
…. beard growth, penile size and body hair are indicative of the presence of testosterone (along with the genes which code for such phenotypes) but do not tell whether an individual has high or low testosterone.
I’ve studied human physiology and biochemistry for years so I know what I’m talking about. Genetics play a huge role in determining whether an individual has a beard, has a large or small penis and body hair.
- Genetically, penis size seems to be determined by in-utero hormone exposure and concentration.
- However, penile measurements I would say make a flaw in only measuring the outer penile length by multiple methods which differ considerably. If the inner penis is roughly the same length of the outer penis (Saladin & Miller 2004: 1029), then a porn star may simply be an average guy with more outer penis and perhaps, less fat pad and/or weaker suspensory ligaments (i.e. all current measurements do not factor in erection angle).
- Until there are standardized ultrasound measurements of different ethnic groups, race realists are not being scientific in claiming that there are differences in penile lengths. At best, one may claim differences in perceived lengths, which is obviously unscientific and irrelevant.
Reference: Saladin, K., and L. Miller. 2004. Anatomy & Physiology: The Unity of Form and Function. 3rd ed. New York, USA: McGraw Hill.
UPDATE 2014-02-06: A blogger on PuaHate.com [dead link] states:
Found the site/guy who uploaded that chart.
Check his great wall of china background, check his posts, most about asians/asia related shit…bet he frauded the data.
Having a Great Wall of China photo and speaking about so-called Asian related issues does not make one an Asian. You are being presumptuous with only that data. If you can find any problem with the data please specify so I can update accordingly. Alternatively, you may perform a study for yourself and post your results for others to critique.
UPDATE 2014-08-31: A blogger named “Boss” from Sluthate.com states:
Europeans live longer and experience T decline. He could’ve limited his studies to account for age, but instead wanted to “aggregate” every study and then claim that it was impossible to do so. When you control methodology and age, this is what you get:
He quotes from the linked article:
In addition, the Swedes had significantly higher levels of serum testosterone, compared with the Koreans.
If you want to control for age, please do so for all the referenced populations. I don’t see how it is possible to control for age unless I have the original data sets but if you have a method, have at it. One article using two sub-populations do not indicate that East Asian have less T than Europeans as I indicated to a previous commenter.
Of course, someone posted that as a comment and he brushed it off, instead referring to his contrived aggregate. Just took a look at that guy’s site. That guy is obsessed with the asian small penis thing. 80% of his site/blog is him discrediting medical studies that show asians to have small penises
What a fucking pathetic loser.
Nowhere in my comment do I refer to aggregation. Aggregation is a race realist method that I am using to show that race realists don’t employ their own method properly. I also gave 5 possible reasons for the Korean/Swede T discrepancy. This blog does not discredit “medical studies that show asians (sic) to have small penises” since I know of no such study. If however you know differently, please leave links in the comments.
Another blogger at race/history/evolution notes blog has a review which views this post poorly. I expected something more substantive but it seems like the reviewer only read the comments and didn’t look at the PDF file which would have dealt with some of his issues. I really don’t understand the obsession over one study as if one study can ever be definitive. As for the contention that there are no studies indicating a 10% difference between East Asians and Europeans, I did find one age controlled study where the Chinese sample had 8.8% more total T, 11.4% more bio-available T and 12% more free T than the European sample. The Japanese sample had 10.5%, 5.1% and 6.7% more than Europeans respectively [Wu et al. 1995]. Wonder if race realists discuss this study, or perhaps they are too busy in celebratory dance around the Korean/Swede campfire?
UPDATE 2014-11-21: Blogger named “Bobby Corwen” from the MacRumors forum states:
But that article you quoted was in my opinion quite stupid because it didn’t account for ages in the groups and that testosterone changes drastically over the lifespans of humans.
Coming from a person of your wide intellect, I am honoured to have a post called “quite stupid”. However, can you quantify “drastically”? As I have stated before, the data does not lend itself to easy age normalization. If you want age normalized data, do it yourself. Clearly, you are most capable of doing so.
It was probably biased because it was written by an Asian man but anyway you’re missing the point, in that its about averages and patterns, not about absolutes.
The T values are averages and are your comments “probably biased” because you do not identify as an “Asian man”?
UPDATE 2015-04-12: Blogger Robert Lindsay states concerning the data in this post that:
The East Asian rates are no good. Yes their levels are a bit higher, but they also a higher level of some other hormone that makes it so they cannot use the higher T very well, so effectively, their rates are lower than Whites.
Lindsay clarifies in another post:
Young Black males have higher levels of active testosterone than European and Asian males. Asian levels are intermediate to Blacks and Whites, but Asians have lower levels of a chemical needed to convert testosterone to its active agent, so effectively they have lower levels. Androgen receptor sensitivity is highest in Black men, intermediate in Whites and lowest in Asians.
The problem is that this claim is based on a study (Ross et al. 1992) of 50 US Africans (i.e. Afropeans) and 54 Japanese. Race realists really know the scientific method. Additionally, this recent study shows HK Chinese having some 3% more bio-available T than US Europeans.
Another blogger named Tata comments:
East Asian men and women have more estrogen, the female hormone.
Estrogen is not a “female hormone”. Estrogen has a feminizing effect but males also need estrogen to function optimally. I wonder which studies were consulted to form a conclusion not found in medical books. I suspect I will be wondering for a long time.
Lindsay then comments further:
Further, the free T levels are:
It just so turns out that Blacks have the highest crime and violence rates, then Whites, then Asians. Quite a few people believe that Blacks have the highest sex drives, then Whites, then Asians.
Blacks have the largest sex organs and Asians have the smallest, and that once again lines up perfectly with T levels.
The evidence is looking pretty good, not only that, but there is a not of other evidence suggesting that indeed it is true.
Find a supposed correlation. Make widely applicable statements. Provide no data. Being a race realists seems to be a length engagement with delusion, fantasy and ‘scientific’ homo-erotica. Lindsay suffers from the inability to distinguish between a hypothesis and a theory and claims that his “research takes a lot of time“. No kidding.
UPDATE 2015-08-15: A poster using the name Strike_Team states on the Amren site:
There was a site that “proved” E. Asians, E. Indians and Egyptians have higher testosterone levels than whites and blacks, stronger sex drives, with those pitiful white males being the majority of viagra users. It was filled of course a lot of circular reasoning and misuse of data. But it was funny as hell to read the “research” and some of the self serving comments from Indians. They really are the most self aggrandizing people I’ve ever encountered.
I did not prove anything but would love to hear about this circular reasoning and data misuse.
UPDATE 2016-07-07: Return of Kings commenter “Jim Trompe” makes the following claim:
Asians have lower levels of Test(probably an advantage in an advanced peaceful civilization) which is why asian women generally are considered more attractive than asian men. When they looked at the bones of people in the Viking era, its difficult to tell the difference between men and women-high Test from constant warring.
When corrected and sent a link to this blog, he then comments:
If you find that persuasive, its because you didnt actually look at the studies hes referring to. Dead links, studies comparing rapists and soccer players(preselection bias). The guy claims to be an expert but doesn’t know what he’s talking about, for example this statement “Genetically, penis size seems to be determined by in-utero hormone exposure and concentration.” No its caused by Dihydrotestosterone, a direct derivative of Testosterone(Estrogen is another derivative). There are many areas where there are genetic or environmental problems that cause a reduction in the enzyme necessary for the conversion of T to Dihydro..for example the Huevos Doces in the Dominican Republic, they were actually raised as girls because their genitals were so undeveloped. Anyways obviously its going to be a heated issue, just like the “debate” about IQ, because no one want to be in the group that is unmanly or low IQ.
Mr. Trompe, exactly who is an ‘Asian’ and who determines such naming? What does having less T have to do with ‘Asian’ men being less attractive than ‘Asian’ women? To whom is this attraction so configured? The studies I used are not dead links, you can find them if you have access to journal repositories (Ebscohost, Jstor) or simply using Google/Google Scholar. This is an aggregate so bias would be minimized (or so race realists like to claim). I don’t claim to be an expert but if you show where I did, I’ll repent and remove the claim. Your focus on one of my comments in response to another comment illustrates that you don’t care to look at the main issue (T differences) but want to veer off into side issues and ad hominem. Is this because you don’t want to be in an “unmanly” group? You ask for sources but provided none for your own claim that ‘Asians’ have the lowest T. Again, is this because you don’t want to be in the “unmanly” group?
UPDATE 2017-01-27: PumpkinPerson comments:
And the person who created that table seems to have a chip on his shoulder because he thinks Rushton was calling East Asians feminine. But being low T doesn’t make you feminine; estrogen makes you feminine.
Rushton claims that “Orientals” have (i) the smallest “primary sexual characteristics” (ii) the smallest “secondary sexual characteristics” (iii) the least androgens and (iv) tentatively used Nyborg’s hormotyping which ranks “Mongoloids” next to androgynous males. I will keep that chip, thanks!
UPDATE: 2017-08-18: venturecapitalcat on Reddit comments:
… stop spamming this subreddit with your pseudo-scientific bullshit. This entire article screams that whoever wrote it has a tiny penis and is desperately trying to compensate by showing that he has a lot of testosterone.
This article was meant to analyze a race-realist analytic method, not to be a scientific article for peer-review and publication. As such, venturecapitalistcat clearly did not read the article. How then does he/she know the size of my penis and the level of my testosterone? Even if such were known, what does that have to do with the article?
Another commenter swampswing:
… this article just screams “I have a tiny deformed penis”.
Again, why is it that people divine small penis size when information does not conform to their social stereotypes? Whether speaking about me or the poster, such comments speak to the level of brainwashing in Anglospheric countries.
More importantly, theunstopable_cam states:
I’m pretty sure the media doesn’t spread lies about testosterone levels in pop culture.
No it does not but it spreads lies about penis size, influences desirability and props up certain ethnic groups.
UPDATE: 2018-05-31: vin on AnthroScape comments:
looked more into that site- it’s apparently ran by some weird fuck that has a problem with asian male stereotypes and is obsessed with asian stuff
just look at his page: it literally has the great wall of china at the top
would take his data with a grain of salt
So if I list 150 peer-reviewed studies, extract the data, make multiple caveats and perform an analysis, I am a “weird fuck” with “a problem”. However, if you claim that “indians and asians” have the “smallest peckers of any race, and more feminine demeanors” without any peer-review validation, this is not a problem. Clearly, we all must bow to such a tour de force of logic.