East Asians and Testosterone I

UPDATE: East Asians and Testosterone II

Hays (2011) states:

North Asians have lower levels of muscle-building testosterone than Europeans. Some Asian athletes have taken testosterone-like steroids as “a way of leveling the playing field.”

He provides no source for either claim. Mail sent to Mr. Hays on March 15, 2013 remain unanswered. Not to be outdone, Kelsey (2008) further states:

The reason basically for Asian men being more feminine in physical appearance is because of they produce more estrogen than men of other racial groups. Asian women are more feminine in appearance because they produce more estrogen than other women. This estrogen also influences personality and emotions this makes Asian men display characteristics that often are associated with women.

Some of the characteristics are they keep emotions hidden well meaning it can be difficult to tell when an Asian man is angry. The more testosterone a man produce the more he will show his emotions of anger, joy, sadness, happiness, etc. The less testosterone a man produces the more he is able to keep his emotions hidden.

But when he has kept these emotions hidden for a long time and bottled up whether these emotions are positive or negative when they come out they will manifest very strongly. The estrogen allows Asian men and women to look younger for many years example a 40 year old Asian man who looks 27 years old.

The claim of lower East Asian testosterone (T) levels is now a race realist marker of “race” or race difference. The European race realist asserts three main ethnic androgen hypotheses with some corollary hypotheses.

Main hypotheses:

  • African males have the highest testosterone level
  • European males have an intermediate testosterone level
  • East Asian males have the lowest testosterone level

Corollary hypotheses:

  • Indo-Aryan or South Asian males have low testosterone levels but higher than East Asians [despite not following from the main hypotheses]
  • Middle Eastern males have high testosterone levels but not as high as Africans
  • Indigenous American males have lower testosterone levels but higher than  Indo-Aryans
  • Latin American males have levels commensurate with their respective Asiatic-American and African admixture (for most instances, higher than Americans)

Data is available for each of these groups though lacking for Americans, Indo-Aryans and Latin Americans. The (general) race realist T-ranking from highest to lowest:

  1. African
  2. Middle Easterner
  3. European
  4. Latino
  5. Native American
  6. Indo-Aryan
  7. East Asian

BACKGROUND

To race realists, when East Asian males are passive, it is because they have the lowest testosterone levels which cause their genitals to be deformed such that they have the smallest lengths, girths, testicular weight and sperm production. When East Asian males are aggressive, it is because they are annoyed that they have low testosterone which causes their genitals to be deformed such that they have the smallest lengths, girths, testicular weight and sperm production. It is a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ stereotype.

Trying to hide this behind a scientific veneer, Jean Philippe Rushton uses the incidence of prostate cancer to assert that since it is high in Americans of African descent, lower in Americans of European descent and lowest in East Asians, it is mainly due to testosterone differences. The problem is that he conveniently focuses on only three groups which he also conveniently defines. His “Caucasoid” grouping does not include Semites and Aryans. His “Mongoloid” group does not include Euro-Americans (Latinos) and indigenous Americans. His “Negroid” group includes US Afropeans but not Dravidians (South Asians) and those with Negrito ancestry such as Malays, which he includes in his “Mongoloid” group.

If he were to have found a race realist revolutionary update to Darwinian evolution as he asserts, then he would have found that Arabs (Saudis, Omanis and Kuwaitis) also have very low prostate cancer rates and that Afro-Zimbabweans have lower levels of prostate cancer than Euro-Zimbabweans, Germans, Australians and US Europeans and a bit lower rate than the Welsh (Kehinde et al. 2005). Contra Eurocentric race realism, Strahm et al. (2009) states in referring to Satner et al. (1998) that:

Comparative studies of Caucasian and Chinese subjects living either in the USA or in China provided strong evidence that environmental/dietary, but not genetic, factors influence androgen production.

Miller et al. (1985) found that “[t]estosterone did not differ with ethnic group” when studying Trinidadian men of African and Indo-Aryan descent. Even among rapists and child molesters, most had normal T levels except for those who were the most violent. Rada, Laws and Kellner (1976) further states that:

There was no correlation between age, race, or length of incarceration and plasma testosterone level.

Rushton had previously proposed the ‘principle of aggregation’ where he would aggregate data to minimize bias. He is correct that data aggregation can minimize bias. He is incorrect in his poor choice of data in the first place (but I digress). Applying his own principle of aggregation, what follow is a meta-analysis of over 150 peer-reviewed articles on hormone levels in different ethnic groups to see if his hypothesis is correct (at least according to the available data).

RESULTS

T-resultsData sources available HERE.

CONCLUSION

proposedT-diffFrom the above tables, it is clear that the race realist assertion is incorrect, whether one looks at the 7 so-called micro ‘races’ or the 3 so-called macro ‘races’. East Asians were found to have the highest average total plasma testosterone (5,673 ρg/mL) followed by Africans (5,442 ρg/mL) and then Europeans (4,992 ρg/mL). Given that the sample size for Africans is smaller (N < 10,000), their relative position may change with more data. Nonetheless, the claim that East Asians have the least testosterone is not supported by scientific data. 

So ladies, if you want a high T male, go to the Philippines (8100 ρg/mL) and find yourself a malnourished, sexually active, 22 year old Filipino; 5 feet 4 inches, 123 lbs, poorly educated and making slightly less than $9 US monthly [Gettler, McDade & Kuzawa (2011)]. Even better, find an Egyptian.

[N.B. Values are liable to be updated if errors detected, self-analysis of data highly recommended before using this hypothesis]

SOURCES:

Gettler, L., McDade, T., and C. Kuzawa. 2011. Cortisol and testosterone in Filipino young adult men: evidence for co-regulation of both hormones by fatherhood and relationship status. American Journal of Human Biology 23(5): 609-620.

Hays, Jeffreys. 2011. Chinese People, Asian Physical Characteristics, Genetics and DNA. http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=118&catid=4&subcatid=18 [accessed: 2013-04-06]. | New link : http://factsanddetails.com/china/cat4/sub18/item118.html as of 2016-10-19.

Kehinde, E., Akanji, A., Mojiminiyi, O., et al. 2005. Putative role of serum insulin-like growth factor–1 (IGF-1) and IGF binding protein-3 (IGFBP-3) levels in the development of prostate cancer in Arab men. Prostate Cancer and Prostatic Diseases 8: 84–90.

Kelsey, Chance. 2008. Why Do Many White Women Not Date Asian Men? Chancellorfiles blog. http://chancellorfiles.wordpress.com/2008/02/24/why-do-many-white-women-not-date-asian-men [accessed: 2013-04-15].

Miller, G., Wheeler, M., Price, S., et al. 1985. Serum high density lipoprotein subclasses, testosterone and sex-hormone-binding globulin in Trinidadian men of African and Indian descent. Atherosclerosis 55(3): 251-258.

Rada, R., Laws, D., and R. Kellner. 1976. Plasma testosterone levels in the rapist. Psychosomatic Medicine 38(4): 257-268.

Santner, S., Albertson, B., Zhang, G-Y., et al. 1998. Comparative rates of androgen production and metabolism in Caucasian and Chinese subjects. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 83: 2104–2109.

Strahm, E., Sottas, P-E., Schweizer, C., et al. 2009. Steroid profiles of professional soccer players: an international comparative study. British Journal of Sports Medicine 43: 1126-1130.

UPDATE 2013-05-08: A blogger on the race realist AnthroScape blog states:

This PDF file is not to be taken 100% seriously. It obviously lacks measurements of free testosterone, which is arguably more important than total testosterone. Furthermore, extrapolating a table ranking ethnic groups based on testosterone levels is not the best idea, especially when there are different age brackets and methodologies of each of the studies to consider.

Comments:

  • There is no way of accurately determining free testosterone. Even if there was, this would also be irrelevant since bio-availability is prime. Since race realists use total serum testosterone, why is this an issue?
  • One cannot and should not compare different testosterone studies with different measurement methods. However, for the race-realist purpose of aggregating data, there is nothing inherently wrong with what the PDF file lists. If JP Rushton can use a few studies and make wild claims which are then used by the Internet-o-sphere, using 150 independent peer-reviewed sources with large samples is much more scientific than anything similar from the race realist community.
  • The PDF contains all of the above and has a long list of why testosterone measurements can be fickle.
  • Age differences will affect the results but healthy males should have negligible decreases. Assuming a 0.4% annual decline from 5000 pg/ml after age 40, a man at 80 should have 4275 pg/mL, less than a 15% difference if my spreadsheet math is correct. It would have been better to normalize for age. So while the tabled rankings is flawed, the point is that the entire issue is flawed as there is no standard measuring method in the first place. That race realists routinely use flawed data should be the issue but …
  • Do feel free to wade through the tables and references and normalize the data for methodology and age. Good luck on that though.

He further states:

I find it slightly odd that Indians have the highest testosterone levels, although it’s understandable because of the conditions they are living in. …… Social aggression, dominance and high cognition among men, especially visuo-spatial cognition, is correlated with moderate to high testosterone levels. Stress and depression are correlated with lower testosterone levels, as are personality traits such as submission and less aggression.

  • What conditions are Indians living in that make for higher T?
  • Western defined and rated social aggression and dominance will obviously down relegate Easterners. That is simple bias: stacking the definitional deck and insisting that everyone play by said deck.
  • What level of correlation is there? There will always be correlations but only if it is significant can such data be used.

He continues:

…. beard growth, penile size and body hair are indicative of the presence of testosterone (along with the genes which code for such phenotypes) but do not tell whether an individual has high or low testosterone.

I’ve studied human physiology and biochemistry for years so I know what I’m talking about. Genetics play a huge role in determining whether an individual has a beard, has a large or small penis and body hair.

  • Genetically, penis size seems to be determined by in-utero hormone exposure and concentration.
  • However, penile measurements I would say make a flaw in only measuring the outer penile length by multiple methods which differ considerably. If the inner penis is roughly the same length of the outer penis (Saladin & Miller 2004: 1029), then a porn star may simply be an average guy with more outer penis and perhaps, less fat pad and/or weaker suspensory ligaments (i.e. all current measurements do not factor in erection angle).
  • Until there are standardized ultrasound measurements of different ethnic groups, race realists are not being scientific in claiming that there are differences in penile lengths. At best, one may claim differences in perceived lengths, which is obviously unscientific and irrelevant.

Reference: Saladin, K., and L. Miller. 2004. Anatomy & Physiology: The Unity of Form and Function. 3rd ed.  New York, USA: McGraw Hill.

UPDATE 2014-02-06: A blogger on PuaHate.com [dead link] states:

Found the site/guy who uploaded that chart.

Guess what…

Hes….

ASIAN.

https://ethnicmuse.wordpress.com/

Check his great wall of china background, check his posts, most about asians/asia related shit…bet he frauded the data.

Having a Great Wall of China photo and speaking about so-called Asian related issues does not make one an Asian. You are being presumptuous with only that data. If you can find any problem with the data please specify so I can update accordingly. Alternatively, you may perform a study for yourself and post your results for others to critique.

UPDATE 2014-08-31: A blogger named “Boss” from Sluthate.com states:

Europeans live longer and experience T decline. He could’ve limited his studies to account for age, but instead wanted to “aggregate” every study and then claim that it was impossible to do so. When you control methodology and age, this is what you get:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16332934

He quotes from the linked article:

In addition, the Swedes had significantly higher levels of serum testosterone, compared with the Koreans.

If you want to control for age, please do so for all the referenced populations. I don’t see how it is possible to control for age unless I have the original data sets but if you have a method, have at it. One article using two sub-populations do not indicate that East Asian have less T than Europeans as I indicated to a previous commenter.

He continues:

Of course, someone posted that as a comment and he brushed it off, instead referring to his contrived aggregate. Just took a look at that guy’s site. That guy is obsessed with the asian small penis thing. 80% of his site/blog is him discrediting medical studies that show asians to have small penises :lol: What a fucking pathetic loser.

Nowhere in my comment do I refer to aggregation. Aggregation is a race realist method that I am using to show that race realists don’t employ their own method properly. I also gave 5 possible reasons for the Korean/Swede T discrepancy. This blog does not discredit “medical studies that show asians (sic) to have small penises” since I know of no such study. If however you know differently, please leave links in the comments.

Another blogger at race/history/evolution notes blog has a review which views this post poorly. I expected something more substantive but it seems like the reviewer only read the comments and didn’t look at the PDF file which would have dealt with some of his issues. I really don’t understand the obsession over one study as if one study can ever be definitive. As for the contention that there are no studies indicating a 10% difference between East Asians and Europeans, I did find one age controlled study where the Chinese sample had 8.8% more total T, 11.4% more bio-available T and 12% more free T than the European sample. The Japanese sample had 10.5%, 5.1% and 6.7% more than Europeans respectively [Wu et al. 1995]. Wonder if race realists discuss this study, or perhaps they are too busy in celebratory dance around the Korean/Swede campfire?

UPDATE 2014-11-21: Blogger named “Bobby Corwen” from the MacRumors forum states:

But that article you quoted was in my opinion quite stupid because it didn’t account for ages in the groups and that testosterone changes drastically over the lifespans of humans.

Coming from a person of your wide intellect, I am honoured to have a post called “quite stupid”. However, can you quantify “drastically”? As I have stated before, the data does not lend itself to easy age normalization. If you want age normalized data, do it yourself. Clearly, you are most capable of doing so.

It was probably biased because it was written by an Asian man but anyway you’re missing the point, in that its about averages and patterns, not about absolutes.

The T values are averages and are your comments “probably biased” because you do not identify as an “Asian man”?

UPDATE 2015-04-12: Blogger Robert Lindsay states concerning the data in this post that:

The East Asian rates are no good. Yes their levels are a bit higher, but they also a higher level of some other hormone that makes it so they cannot use the higher T very well, so effectively, their rates are lower than Whites.

Lindsay clarifies in another post:

Young Black males have higher levels of active testosterone than European and Asian males. Asian levels are intermediate to Blacks and Whites, but Asians have lower levels of a chemical needed to convert testosterone to its active agent, so effectively they have lower levels. Androgen receptor sensitivity is highest in Black men, intermediate in Whites and lowest in Asians.

The problem is that this claim is based on a study (Ross et al. 1992) of 50 US Africans (i.e. Afropeans) and 54 Japanese. Race realists really know the scientific method. Additionally, this recent study shows HK Chinese having some 3% more bio-available T than US Europeans.

Another blogger named Tata comments:

East Asian men and women have more estrogen, the female hormone.

Estrogen is not a “female hormone”. Estrogen has a feminizing effect but males also need estrogen to function optimally. I wonder which studies were consulted to form a conclusion not found in medical books. I suspect I will be wondering for a long time.

Lindsay then comments further:

Further, the free T levels are:

Highest: Blacks
Mid: Whites
Lowest: Asians

It just so turns out that Blacks have the highest crime and violence rates, then Whites, then Asians. Quite a few people believe that Blacks have the highest sex drives, then Whites, then Asians.

Blacks have the largest sex organs and Asians have the smallest, and that once again lines up perfectly with T levels.

The evidence is looking pretty good, not only that, but there is a not of other evidence suggesting that indeed it is true.

Find a supposed correlation. Make widely applicable statements. Provide no data. Being a race realists seems to be a length engagement with delusion, fantasy and ‘scientific’ homo-erotica. Lindsay suffers from the inability to distinguish between a hypothesis and a theory and claims that his “research takes a lot of time“. No kidding.

UPDATE 2015-08-15: A poster using the name Strike_Team states on the Amren site:

There was a site that “proved” E. Asians, E. Indians and Egyptians have higher testosterone levels than whites and blacks, stronger sex drives, with those pitiful white males being the majority of viagra users. It was filled of course a lot of circular reasoning and misuse of data. But it was funny as hell to read the “research” and some of the self serving comments from Indians. They really are the most self aggrandizing people I’ve ever encountered.

I did not prove anything but would love to hear about this circular reasoning and data misuse.

UPDATE 2016-07-07: Return of Kings commenter “Jim Trompe” makes the following claim:

Asians have lower levels of Test(probably an advantage in an advanced peaceful civilization) which is why asian women generally are considered more attractive than asian men. When they looked at the bones of people in the Viking era, its difficult to tell the difference between men and women-high Test from constant warring.

When corrected and sent a link to this blog, he then comments:

If you find that persuasive, its because you didnt actually look at the studies hes referring to. Dead links, studies comparing rapists and soccer players(preselection bias). The guy claims to be an expert but doesn’t know what he’s talking about, for example this statement “Genetically, penis size seems to be determined by in-utero hormone exposure and concentration.” No its caused by Dihydrotestosterone, a direct derivative of Testosterone(Estrogen is another derivative). There are many areas where there are genetic or environmental problems that cause a reduction in the enzyme necessary for the conversion of T to Dihydro..for example the Huevos Doces in the Dominican Republic, they were actually raised as girls because their genitals were so undeveloped. Anyways obviously its going to be a heated issue, just like the “debate” about IQ, because no one want to be in the group that is unmanly or low IQ.

Mr. Trompe, exactly who is an ‘Asian’ and who determines such naming? What does having less T have to do with ‘Asian’ men being less attractive than ‘Asian’ women? To whom is this attraction so configured? The studies I used are not dead links, you can find them if you have access to journal repositories (Ebscohost, Jstor) or simply using Google/Google Scholar. This is an aggregate so bias would be minimized (or so race realists like to claim). I don’t claim to be an expert but if you show where I did, I’ll repent and remove the claim. Your focus on one of my comments in response to another comment illustrates that you don’t care to look at the main issue (T differences) but want to veer off into side issues and ad hominem. Is this because you don’t want to be in an “unmanly” group? You ask for sources but provided none for your own claim that ‘Asians’ have the lowest T. Again, is this because you don’t want to be in the “unmanly” group?

UPDATE 2017-01-27: PumpkinPerson comments:

And the person who created that table seems to have a chip on his shoulder because he thinks Rushton was calling East Asians feminine. But being low T doesn’t make you feminine; estrogen makes you feminine.

Rushton claims that “Orientals” have (i) the smallest “primary sexual characteristics” (ii) the smallest “secondary sexual characteristics” (iii) the least androgens and (iv) tentatively used Nyborg’s hormotyping which ranks “Mongoloids” next to androgynous males. I will keep that chip, thanks!

UPDATE: 2017-08-18: venturecapitalcat on Reddit comments:

… stop spamming this subreddit with your pseudo-scientific bullshit. This entire article screams that whoever wrote it has a tiny penis and is desperately trying to compensate by showing that he has a lot of testosterone.

This article was meant to analyze a race-realist analytic method, not to be a scientific article for peer-review and publication. As such, venturecapitalistcat clearly did not read the article. How then does he/she know the size of my penis and the level of my testosterone? Even if such were known, what does that have to do with the article?

Another commenter swampswing:

… this article just screams “I have a tiny deformed penis”.

Again, why is it that people divine small penis size when information does not conform to their social stereotypes? Whether speaking about me or the poster, such comments speak to the level of brainwashing in Anglospheric countries.

More importantly, theunstopable_cam states:

I’m pretty sure the media doesn’t spread lies about testosterone levels in pop culture.

No it does not but it spreads lies about penis size, influences desirability and props up certain ethnic groups.

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51 thoughts on “East Asians and Testosterone I

  1. Belief system based on yes, stereotypes. Go to East Asia today, particularly South Korea and northern China and see how many men are over six feet tall. In addition, treat yourself to an Asian spa sometime and check out their size for yourself. I was an expat in Seoul for two years and the stereotypes I had about not only Asian men, but also Asian women have completely shattered.

    • I don’t think people will change even if presented with contradictory information. Sustaining stereotypes make for a better self-image, even if it is contradicted by direct empirical evidence to the contrary. Even if you changed your views, many others did not because it was not expedient. Such is the nature of man. However, would you be kind enough to share what male and female stereotypes you held and the (probable) source of said stereotypes?

    • You sound like an asian. Stereotypes exist for a reason most people have already seen the evidence for their own eyes. Growing up in HS we had many Asians in my school in the shower they would always be smaller in comparison to the blacks and whites. Even Asians themselves have admitted this. The only people who dispute it are those insecure over their size. There’s a blog called hungasians.tumblr.com. This site attempts to destroy the asian stereotype but it falls flat on its face and just further proves that asians are smaller because every single blog on caucasians or blacks display significantly larger examples than the so called “Hungasian” blog which mostly has guys about 6 inches max. Compare them to the white guys on italianomen.tumblr.com bigwhitedick69.tumblr.com or blackcock.tumblr.com. As for Asian women they DO have more petite frames, smaller breast etc and this is something that has been proven as well. Asians have the smallest breast sizes. Europeans the larges, Africans somewhere in between. For further proof you can also take a look at nudist african tribes and caucasians and compare them to Amerindian tribes who are asiatic and much smaller flaccid than the Africans/Caucasians.

      • This post is about testosterone, not penises. If your method of finding truth is to look at people in showers or nude pics on specific ‘interest’ sites, then have at it. If you are so sure of your conclusions, then what are you even doing browsing this blog? If you were sure of your conclusions after watching those smaller East Asians in the showers (and their admittance of being smaller), why did you go to those listed sites?

  2. no way, this article doesn’t make any sense, because white men are the largest users of Viagra supplements and I’ve had experiences with East Indian men and their sex drives are much higher than white men, plus aren’t North Indian and Pakistani men a mixture of Middle Eastern and indigenous Indians?

  3. Wow. This is quite interesting. Thank you for sharing. And thank you for stopping by Mutley’s Great Adventure and liking Autointoxication, parts 1, 2, and 3. Best to you.

  4. I am an Asian so I understand about the small penis size compared to black guys. However, the penis size is not everything you need to satisfy your lady. The mindset is the most important. If you have a 10-inche penis but it does not get up on demand, then it is not worth it. Most Asian men have short penis about 5’5 to 8 inches in erection. The most important part is the rock hard erection on demand.

    • Hi Victor, size for the average guy (i.e. 90% of all males) is irrelevant. The US media has made it relevant because in that culture (and those who are imperialized by said culture), the penis is a clear sign of masculinity while in ‘Eastern’ culture, masculinity is based on actions and responsibilities. No one is “Asian” or “black” as these are terms that devalue individuality to implement and sustain stereotypes. We do not know that so-called Asians are smaller as about half of the penile shaft is internal. The porn actors may simply be those who have more external shaft so that you may be the same or larger than they taking shaft totality into account. The most important issue is finding a woman who is madly in love with you and you with her. Both of you will be sexually satisfied if your relationship is based on more than anatomy and performance. After all, neither anatomy nor performance improve with age

  5. Pingback: East Asians and Testosterone II | Ethnic Muse

  6. This doesn’t make any sense.Indians are extremely diverse in their phenotypes and genetics.North west indians,kashmiris,punjabis,himachalis look completely different from other indians ethnic groups such as tamils and bengalis in both body and face.
    indian Jat punjabi males who fall under the mediterranean ethnic branch are known to be very tall and robust looking (nordindid)And tend to have have strong pilous systems.
    It has been proven that caucasian indians are related to european,central asians and middle easterns through a genetic connection.So if middle eastern males have high levels of t then its likely that those indians with middle eastern ancestry will also share a similar sex drive.Granted,there are certain groups in south asia.Bengalis and south indians for example who tend to look more effeminate but i’d still dispute on them having a lower sex drive .
    in regards to South east asian men they have gone through certain genetics mutations that mean that they grow less body and facial hair.It seems that what wasn’t needed was discarded during the evolutionary process for mongoloid groups such as the chinese etc.
    If we are solely going by visual stereotypes you would assume that a tall robust mediterranean male with a good beard growth would have more testosterone than say a skinny baby faced ginger haired male.Also black and asian are not races.They are social terms that are extremely arbitrary in nature and are not based on science.
    I do believe that there are definite differences in certain ethnic groups.And many of those traits are likely to share a correlation with hormone levels.For example south east asian women tend to have very soft almost child like faces in comparison to Caucasian females groups which is probably down to their high estrogen levels.And south east asian men do tend to look less robust in comparison to middle eastern and european males but there are always exceptions.Thanks for your input on this subject.Much appreciated

    • Hi Jenna, I am not sure what about Indians doesn’t make sense. I am only reporting the data. Please have a look at the PDF file to see the different issues surrounding these values. Human bodies are complex, inter-related bundles of chemicals. To make claims that certain features are due mainly to hormone levels, is simplistic. The data above indicates this. There is unfortunately not enough present data for an analysis of ethnic differences in female hormones.

      If some ethnic groups have certain defining features, this does not mean that they are unrelated to those who have the opposite features (https://ethnicmuse.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/forensic-anthropology/). Additionally, one cannot access T-levels from visual stereotypes which is what you are doing. That’s unscientific and can lead to incorrect conclusions. You have to collect the best unbiased data and then analyze.

      I would agree that the different names we give to ethnic groups are somewhat arbitrary but I did not use the simplistic terms “black” and “Asian” but African, East Asian and Indo-Aryan (which are less problematic). East Asians perhaps look more child-like because of an epicanthic fold due to more orbital fat. But do we call more adipose people child-like? Do East Asians think they look more child-like? Do they think non-East Asians are more child-like? We do have to try to be more sensitive and less Eurocentric in applying terms improperly. While visual data is fast, simple and pleasing to our racist natures, they do not constitute scientific data. To that end, even if you were to measure accurately the supposed lack of robustness of East Asian males, you still have to try to explain WHY this is so. Perhaps it is due to lactose intolerance, war/disease, problems with nutrient assimilation, who knows? To claim that hormones would have some effect is not enough, we have to explain to what extent it does (if any). Thanks for commenting.

      • Which sources are you referring to?
        You are correct that none of my sources are facts. Sources are data, facts exist independent of data and analysis.
        Anyway, one study should not be used to indicate a trend. Even a large meta-analysis can be problematic. South Koreans do not represent all East Asians nor do Swedes represent all Europeans. Swedes may have high T and their Finnish neighbours may have much lower T for example. Note that the Swedish sample was younger (18-21) than the Korean (21-39) and T does decrease generally with age. The sample sizes were also small. I don’t think the researchers controlled for age so that may be a factor.

    • All this proves is that white males are insecure little men that hate it when minorities take their women, and no European males are short and skinny, the reason why they’re taller is because of better environments, the average man in the Netherlands was 5 ft 4 in the post 19th century, but I sort of agree with the Jat Punjabi males, I’ve seen those men and they’re naturally taller and robust, most of them are in the military but East Asian men given better environments are way more taller and robust than white men, especially Northern Chinese men, and scientific reports also say that East Asian men have higher testosterone levels than white men, the reason why in my opinion that East Asian men don’t look as lean as some African men is because African men have better receptors to express their testosterone levels, but once an East Asian man starts training they start getting really faster, if you noticed in sprinters all around the world, Jamaicans are currently on average fast, but East Asian men are mostly all clocking 10 seconds flat, while white men even with all the facilities in the world could barely get one white guy to cross the 10 second barrier, I also see that Australian Aborigines are naturally fast too, even though they have a really less population, because Patrick Johnson still crossed the 10 second barrier, and with better training South Indians are fast too, because in the 1950s, all of the medals in the Asian games were mainly won by South Indians, us East Asians just recently started going faster than them, also here is a scientific report from the UK that compared all the ethnic groups in the UK from birth to the age of 5, Sikh kids in the UK turned out to be the tallest and heaviest group at the age of 5, and I do agree with this scientific report, because the Sikhs guard the Queen of England.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1029972/

      Here is some pics of Sikhs

      and here is a Sikh, but he shaved

      • All ethnic groups were about the same height before and present height increase is partially due to better heath conditions, abundance of varied food sources, more political stability and in particular, the eating of meat and milk. The average human height potential seems to have been reached by the Dutch at 6ft. So it would not be surprising that other groups would tend towards this value also.

      • Why are asian women leaving asian men in droves if we are so insecure and skinny? Asians online are ones crying about getting girlfriends taken by white men. No asian men has nerve say that to a white man’s face because he’d go down in one punch.

      • Sorry emuse there is nothing suggesting that hollywood makes a bit of difference on people’s dating decisions. That is as dumb as a white nationalist saying interracial commercial causes women to date black guys. No studies support that. However, it is true that women number 1 goto is male’s height. White countries have tallest men in world.

      • If there is nothing to suggest that Hollywood influences dating decisions, why then does Hollywood constantly demean East Asian heterosexual masculinity? If it is true that a woman’s #1 goto is height, why is there not massive intermarriage between African females and European males in the USA? Perhaps I should ask you which studies support your assertion.

  7. “So ladies, if you want a high T male, go to the Philippines (8100 ρg/mL) and find yourself a malnourished, sexually active, 22 year old Filipino; 5 feet 4 inches, 123 lbs, poorly educated and making slightly less than $9 US monthly”

    aww c’mon bro, I make more than $9 a month. Ladies ladies ladies, if you want a high T male, get at an American born Flipino (8100 ρg/mL).

    • Hi Jonathan, just reporting what I could find in the peer-reviewed literature but it should be applicable to you as well. However, if you follow a US diet (high fat and protein), you might be lucky to even have 5000 pg/mL.

      • Hi AJ, you link to one study in the US which does not have a ‘racially’ pure population. Many who think themselves European have some non-European ancestry and African Americans are known to be of substantial non-African ancestry, so the sample would be biased from the start. The link at the top of this post gives a summary of some 199 studies which do indicate that contrary to popular belief, East Asians do not necessarily have less testosterone. You are free to point out where I am wrong with the data.

      • EMUSE I want to see you respond to another guy’s post that refuted your blog on another wordpress. Note he gave more studies than you did.

        “The website referenced in the post is bogus. Any desire to frame the material on the referenced website is just an exercise in establishing closure.

        The world is as you see it. White people are almost always in the middle of some human measurement; when that falls out of whack you know the data is probably, but not necessarily, incorrect.

        Check here:

        jcem.endojournals.org/content/91/2/687.full (Swede/Korean study)

        ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20550541 (South Asian vs Caucasian)

        ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12608929 (Pakistani v. White v. African)

        ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22177168 (penis size & anogenital distance, correlation to higher testosterone)

        healthandenvironment.org/ docs/Eisenberg_2012_The_Relationship_Between _Anogenital_Distance_ and_Reproductive_Hormone_Levels_in_Adult_Men.pdf (same study from above in depth)”

      • I briefly replied on an update dated August 31st. He did not give more studies than I did (unless you have not read the PDF file).

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  9. AJ Freeman–you’re a racist peice of cr*p. And I’m a White male saying that. I’m living in Asia and have many good Asian friends, but I avoid Westerners because of people like you. Why is it always American/Anglo types that think like you do?

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  11. Small penis is not a problem if you know how to make love. Most women prefer big and long penis but some don’t care. It is hard to say here. I know a woman has a hard time to attain an orgasm with a short and small penis size. However, it is not always correct that most women attain orgasm with big and longer penis. It depends on the way you make love. So, don’t feel humiliated if you have a small and short penis.

  12. African
    Middle Easterner
    European
    Latino
    Native American
    Indo-Aryan
    East Asian

    I don’t agree with this. I am circumspect of blogger’s sources too since other studies have said white and black men share the same testosterone level. The only fact that remains consistent in all of these studies is that East Asian men have lower testosterone, though not drastically so.

    I believe this has more to do with diet, cultural upbringing, and behavior (which all three is known to have influences on the brain’s hormone production and development) rather than an innate characteristic of the races. Blacks for example tend to live in poverty-stricken areas and thus have to compensate for their poor surroundings through aggression to survive. Blacks are known for entering puberty earlier than all the other races, both the males and the females; which is a sign of the respective hormones of their sex being high. Blacks and East Asians facial features are not far from each other, though they are said to be genetically furthest from each other. African-Americans are known for being taller and more muscular than native Africans, especially the Central and Southern types.

    Though people prefer to discuss the muscularity and athleticism of the black males, it is also true that black males (and females) both tend to have a higher concentration of fat on their buttocks, hips, and thighs which is more representative of higher estrogen.

    East Asians on the other hand, live on a carb and soy diet, their culture stresses restrain from displays of emotions and passions (unlike many black cultures), they emphasis mental ability and dexterousness rather than physical strength, and there are other things I won’t comment of; mainly due to my ignorance. Indo-Aryans have a similar culture and also have a carb diet.
    East Asian and Indo-Aryans tend to be small in stature and both cultures emphasize on smarts and intelligence.

    However, unlike blacks, East Asian and Indo-Aryans tend to have a uniform fat distribution and low muscle mass; with wider waists and slimmer hips.

    If we take sex drive being a more steady factor in determining testosterone, then that already puts the Latino and Indo-Aryan group far, far up there, with Middle Easterners perhaps beating black men at first.

    • The ranking presented is derived from multiple sources. Thus, it would not be surprising that you can find some that say otherwise. It is untrue however, that ALL studies show East Asians to have lower T than Africans and Europeans. If you have issues with my sources, please indicate which sources and why.

    • Not true, Indo Aryan is just the Brahmin race of India and that idea of mental ability doesn’t show on the Indian population as a whole because India is even a much more third world place than Africa. Not to mention Indian people especially from the north have the highest amounts of rape and honor killing on the planet. The Sikh Indians were found in studies to be taller than the European people. I’ve seen many Sikhs even over heights like 7 ft +, and middle eastern isn’t a race, you have Arabs and Turks there. Lets also not forget that its European nations that are first world not Asian nations like Cambodia and Laos. Which means its obvious that Europeans emphasize on education more. I’ve seen many Pakistani kids bully British kids in Britain. Also educational levels for Pakistanis is the lowest in Britain and even lower than African people. You assumptions are flawed and missing many important factors such as the diversity within these places. The Mongols are known as killers with bows in history. Muay Thai is the art of breaking bones from Thailand. If you go through Indian states like Haryana where majority of India’s wrestlers are from. You see tall, robust males all around the area. This link also includes Persians having low testosterone but they win most of the weight lifting medals also.

  13. @AJ Freeman

    “Asians online are ones crying about getting girlfriends taken by white men. No asian men has nerve say that to a white man’s face because he’d go down in one punch.”

    Are you sure about that?

    No Asian men have nerve? Well clearly you haven’t met enough of us. Go down in one punch? Why don’t you upload a video of yourself doing that and prove it tough guy. Anyone can talk tough online.

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